Every story needs a villain. Someone to oppose the protagonist.

However, there are some traits that will make the antagonist memorable and feel like a real person, with true motives.

In episode 77 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast, Autumn and Jesper explore how to create the best villain for a novel.

Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.


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Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast in today's publishing landscape. You can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello? I am Jesper and I'm Autumn. This is episode 77 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast. And today's episode is sort of a continuation of last week's episode where we shared 10 Traits that makes a protagonist great. So, today we will do the same thing, but this time it's the antagonists, or the villains turn And I was so,

Autumn (55s):
So looking forward to this one and it ended up being so hard or it's so much harder than the heroes. Yeah, it was a actually.

Jesper (1m 4s):
But yeah, I hope it's got to be just as much fun as last week, but at least in coming up with the 10 items and that wasn't even a bit harder. And I, as I said before, we started recording, I felt like the first six or seven of them, those were quite easy. But then number eight, nine, 10 at the bottom end of the list, those where a bit harder. Yeah. I had to think a while, but those,

Autumn (1m 27s):
Yeah, I would've had been happy if we're coming up with the top five things for our top. Traits for Villain, but I'm in, it's two. I told you this, I a sat down the sporting and stared at my computer until I came up with my final two. I really had a forced myself to think this went through and I might the heroes, I try to do the hero's like in positive traits, but this one that ended up being more, the things Villain shouldn't be so will have to see how much we overlap this time. It's interesting.

Jesper (1m 57s):
Interesting. But anyway, will get there first. How were things on your side of the Atlantic? It's good. It's good. We, we have guests over the weekend, so yeah, that was quite good. Yeah.

Autumn (2m 11s):
Koshi and a nice to see some friends and a quick visiting, but of course we couldn't hug each other due to the COVID-19 situations. So that was a bit weird, but at the same time, at least having friends in the house For me, after a long while in isolation, that felt a bit like returning to normal, at least. So that was quite nice. Oh, that's excellent. Yeah. It it's good to be able to see people again. And we haven't, we seen a few extra people, but it is difficult because I know even my parents had said, do you know someone?

Autumn (2m 42s):
They haven't seen happen to me driving by? And so my dad in the guard and instantly when you go hug and it's like, he's immuno-compromised, you can't do that. You gotta think before you tackle somebody and is yeah, but it was also when we, you know, we had to remind ourselves when they, when, when they entered that we couldn't hockey to it because it feels natural.

Jesper (3m 4s):
That's what you do. So that was a bit weird, but, but I think other than that, it was, it was very nice. A guy with a bit of normal T in the light again. And, but I think otherwise it, she has also been quite a busy week. I got all my modules, it was completed. I'm so impressed. It only took like two years. I'm so swamped with formatting and creating pictures for the books were going to be releasing here over this summer that I still behind on my modules, but I'll get there.

Jesper (3m 38s):
I'll get there. Yeah. But in the meantime, I also got started on the self publishing success course that this week course. So I started on that earlier today and I actually upload it the first module fully recorded and uploaded to our hosting platform as well. That is fantastic. Oh yeah, that's good. So nine more modules to go and I would really love it if it would be possible for me to have all of them done before summer holiday. But I don't know if that's going to be go on holiday in, you'd be like, could you build a website while I'm gone?

Jesper (4m 14s):
So I seen her, this was going, I was planning on doing my world building modules. Well, you were on vacation. So just keep that in mind. Right. All right. Yeah. Well, it's not me. It's more the model or listeners who we'll be on your back because the sooner you get done, then as soon as they will have their free cost delivered two to, I need to clear, I've heard several people say I need to clone myself, or you can think that I just need to clone myself. Yeah. It can be that hot. Right. Of course, there's got to be a magic fairy or something around here who can figure it out for me or a mad scientist.

Jesper (4m 50s):
Somebody's put in a way to put in an add in the newspaper that your looking for a math scientist, because we need to get more worked. Yeah, I'll do that. Just kind of, not that cracks starts responding to that app should actually be kind of funny. Yeah. Well, at least we we'll have some stuff to read out loud on the, on the Podcast afterwards. I'll do a Facebook ad. That will be even more entertaining. Yeah.

Autumn (5m 21s):
Yeah. Okay. But how about you then? You seen any people have done anything interesting over the last week? Oh, the person who owns the land, the cabin is on its head. Her daughter is up for 'em of ones from Georgia and the other's from Boston. And so I've seen them and actually got to give everyone a little bit of a tour of the cabin and the work we did. And then, you know what? My, my big project has been three years in the making. I finally put together the trailer two, my Epic Fantasy series.

Autumn (5m 52s):
So both trilogies combined into one trailer, because if you've got to do it, you might as well just do it for everything. And so I'm so excited to have that three year task off my back burner list. So that feels really good. Yeah. I can understand the why. Yeah. That's good. We got the internet WRITING Fantasy Podcast Oh, well, first of all, a huge and very warm welcome to Jeffrey Crosby who joined us on Petro on there.

Autumn (6m 29s):
That's right. I saw he joined this last week. So welcome. I hope you're enjoying their, all the tips that are up there on Patrion and the fun in the exclusive benefit's as well. Yeah. That was a, of, there was a ton of posts. I think Petron has started list. I don't know if they've already done or always I'm interested on this and not quite sure, but I have noticed how, if you go to the site, when, if you're not locked in, like, like we normally are, then it we'll list how many posts are in there.

Jesper (6m 60s):
What kind of categories in just like modern a hundred in writing. And I don't know what it was like 40 world building, or I can't remember how many, but it was a lot. So it had been that busy. Yeah. So there was a lot of posts in there that ah, that one can dive into. So, but that was great. Thank you so much, Jeffery for it, for joining us. And we also need to give a heartfelt thank you to say it, who increased his pledge and totally made me smile with his recent comments.

Autumn (7m 32s):
I actually have to save this. One's ate because I do. There's a few comments that every once in a while, just to make you feel like Yeah and he, I, we were talking about some of his world building because we have a little task world building extravaganza going on on my Monday post. And he replied too, one of them as such an amazing answer. Or you rock it with those smiley face. I'm like, Ohh, that's going on in my little Pinboard for when I need to smile. So yeah. That, and then sometimes it's this short sweet, enthusiastic in heartfelt one's that just make it kind of like, Oh yeah, I'm saving it.

Jesper (8m 6s):
Its awesome. Yeah. So I'll have to say that the way it is, those of you who choose to help us on Petro on that are the backbone of this show. It truly is, you know, it's you who keep this show going. So it means a lot to us that you are supporting us if you're listening and you haven't yet checked out Petra, there is a link in the show notes. So please go and check it out. You know, as a patron supporter, you are getting access to a ton of perks on top of all those a story's and, and, and post out there we just talk about, but there was a lot of other purchase.

Autumn (8m 41s):
Well, and you get in for just a dollar a month, so it doesn't get much more affordable than that. So check it out. It really makes us happy. Yes anything from a THE worldwide web world web. And they're saying, well, yeah, I know. And to see now it was a tongue twister am not going to be able to figure it out. No, I mean, I Am Writing Fantasy group, it's been a ton of fun again. This week there's been some really good posts and they've been continuing with a, some of their breaking down trope.

Autumn (9m 15s):
So it's just, ah, again, I've only been into a couple of times as a week. It's been, it was such a crazy week, but I do love seeing how everyone is interacting and it's a great resource too. If your looking for some tips, some feedback, just everyone is so nice and response to all the questions and you are usually answering things before I ever even get in there. So it's wonderful platform. So it comes to search for us on Facebook, under Am Writing Fantasy and come check us out and join the group.

Jesper (9m 52s):
Yes. Yes. So as we talked about at the top of the show here, we, we did have a lot of fun last week, actually automated through our list of 10 Traits and we try to see how much a will that we have it yet. So we can do the same this week, but I wonder how much overlap there's going to be a one sheet. I said that last week as well, but I am actually agreeing with you this week. I know because especially, cause you sounded surprised at my mine are more of what Villain shouldn't be. So I'm thinking maybe we won't have quite as much overlap this time.

Autumn (10m 25s):
Yeah. I've been, I don't know. I, off the last weeks experienced, I feel like so much less confident about my ability to, to have this run, right. Because Oh, you know, a boy I was wrong as well. So I don't know why should I predict how many overlapping Traits we have this time? Alright, well I'm going to say, I'm going to go with under 50% at this time. So do you want to go with it over? You want to switch places from last week or, or, you know, what does that mean?

Autumn (10m 55s):
And there are four, I think will have about 40 to 50% overlapping out of the 20 or 20 Traits each week or a 10 Traits each to the 20 total. I'm saying maybe eight to 10 will overlap.

Jesper (11m 10s):

Autumn (11m 12s):
Eight to 10. What do you mean? Yeah, I think eight we'll have eight or so. Yeah. Eight. So about four or five of our as well, at least five over there. And last week we have seven. Was it a yeah. Well I think it was a 13 cause I added up, you know, a 13. Yeah. I was 13 out of 20 overlaps, so right. Yeah. So, Hm. Okay. I'll I'll be bold at this time. We'll say Oh 11.

Autumn (11m 42s):
All right. You see a 11 sounds good. So that means like six out of 10. It should be overlapping. Yeah. And I'm saying four to songs sang right around. I'm saying it a little less than a week to 10. Yeah. You somewhere in there. So we're a little, we're really close and are guesstimate of how it much overlap will be. We'll probably ended up with like 20 or something. Oh, well, okay. If that happens again, I don't know. I I'll be lost for words.

Jesper (12m 13s):
Are we good? Oh, we'll have to give it a go. Alright. I started last time. So I think you should kick us off with your number 10. Okay. Yeah. I can do that after. So you don't need to have a notepad there so that you can keep track of our overlapping them. I will. So again, reader a listener's if you happen to hear some typing, I'm just trying to keep track of, of what we are. And if you, if you keep track and find out we're wrong, please let us know if I miscount.

Jesper (12m 44s):
OK. So I will start with number 10 and I think as well as last time around, let's try to see if we can just share a bit of thoughts about why we picked each one is I think that's yeah. Okay. This sounds good. OK. So I will start out and again, as I said in the beginning, the last three ones, that means numbers, not a spot number is eight, nine, and 10. Those were really hot. I have trouble finding one. So I think it gets better than further down to watch.

Jesper (13m 15s):
Number one, we get like a So number 10 was a guy being jealous. Oh, how interesting. And yeah, because when I have, so that's no overlap. Okay. But it's just like being jealous as an emotion. We all can relate to M and a technician who is perhaps feeling jealous of what the protagonists have, or maybe it could be jealous about some of the protectionist personality traits, you know, that the Villain wishes that I could be like this and that, or do like whatever, you know, it, I think it makes the Villain instantly relatable because as I said, jealousy is something we all understand.

Autumn (14m 1s):
So I think that's good trait. What is a good day? I don't disagree, but it's not what I thought of, but yes. So it's definitely makes them a very relatable person. So yes, I agree. My number 10 is not like a huge one, but it's one is definitely a per more personal than in a more generic Hey this is a good Villain. So for me, one thing that I do live in a really good Villain that really kind of makes me like it is sarcasm. I know it sounds silly, but I love good sarcastic Villain and Someone with like a dry wit and maybe a well earned arrogant air, sort of like they not only think that there better than everyone else, they've pretty much proven it.

Autumn (14m 41s):
And they have the, the wit, the sarcasm to remain others with some veil threats or amused patience. You know, I know it's maybe my little cynical side, but yes, sometimes you get those characters who had that half smile, a Glint in their eye while there are also a stabbing you and I'm like, I'd love those guys. So that's when I liked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I, especially like, you know, if, especially in movies, you know, if, if, if you have this really bad, Villain there, Andy.

Jesper (15m 16s):
And it was just like, he just care at all day. You know, we could just see like, he is completely unimpressed by, by the, by the Hero or the army that his before him or whatever, it was just like, Oh, whatever. <inaudible>. Yeah, exactly. Just like, okay. I Yeah, if I'm ever, like, if I was ever a super villain, that is totally they'll persona. I want to go for it. Yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah. It was just, Oh, I don't know. I shouldn't have thought a set up because now I lost a penny dreadful.

Jesper (15m 46s):
We just talked about over this weekend that there was a new season of penny dreadful. I haven't watched it, but, but my, our friends who visited have watched it in the end, they set the, actually that there was two gods' in that new season. He was just, it was a good and a bad or a good and evil God. And they are sort of competing, you know? Oh, well the evil God has just being really evil in manipulating or a human or mankind. So I have to watch that after he set that up, it's like, okay, no, I have to watch it.

Autumn (16m 16s):
Yeah. And that's funny cause we're just looking for a news show and we've been watching, we just started on upload, which is quite interesting. But I am gonna add that one to our cue because I did see it night for God and it would come out. So I thank you. Yeah you can watch it right after what's the tiger King. What you're really trying to avoid. I actually have watched that episode four, but that's when Adam was a way and he does a lot. It was better than I thought I will actually fish it out. Yes. I will finish it at some point when I'm not torturing my husband.

Autumn (16m 47s):
Cause he refuses to have anything to do with it. So I've got to spend some quiet time. So for sarcasm, it's not one you have, so there is no overlap. No, no, I don't think that that so far, no is zero for zero. All right. This is unusual. I just kind of know, but this was going to end up with just like last week, last week I was way off in my prediction and not going to be way off again. It will be interesting. Okay. So you want to have my number nine, so lets go for it.

Jesper (17m 20s):
Okay. Vengeful fit. Ooh. That's an interesting lion. I think this is a good one. You know, somebody who has an Axe to grind, it's a, it's a believable person, but also interesting because one day a vengeful about something. We also want to understand why and we want to learn what happened to the person. So I think that's a good trait for a Villain that it's a very good training and I had something maybe similar, but it's not really close enough. So I'm going to say no overlap, but I knew it was just so weird.

Autumn (17m 52s):
We, again, I think it's because we struggled so much with this one. After we out of sync, freezing through something wrong, you know what it is? It's a Monday, but it's always a Monday so Hey, all right. Yeah so nine, my number nine is smart and I don't just being clever, but I mean like truly intelligent to the point of DVS and our thinking the Author because goodness knows I had a Villain one of my favorite villain's and I could see he was always out at maneuvering MI. I thought he was gonna win the entire trilogy.

Autumn (18m 22s):
So I really did not trust him except two trust in that he had figured out what he was doing and tell me eventually. So if this is, especially, if you think about it logically though, this is if you're a Villain your antagonist is a figure who is like risen Farr from the ranks, like maybe started as a peasant and Roosen up through the government or something like that. That is someone who is going to be able to outfox just about anyone to have come so far. So I really like a master chess player of whose doing the long game and can handle the short game.

Autumn (18m 55s):
That's just so impressed with me when I'm just like,

Jesper (18m 58s):
Wow. Fully agree. Fully agree. Yeah. I think we'll have some overlap there. Some of us, we got one I think. Yeah. I don't think we, I think I haven't worded it exactly like that, but I think it's closest to some of my other ones. So all right. But number eight is a persuasive. Ooh, because I mean, they're, there's a few of the Traits on my list. You had to come here and that will compliment this one. So I hope it's not too much of a cheat because if there's too much overlap with one, some of my other ones, but, but I just think that, you know, a Villain who is able to give a logical argument as to why it is necessarily to do what he or she's doing.

Jesper (19m 45s):
It just works wonders in showing the reader that this is a, you know, this is a real person that doesn't mean that the Rita has to agree with a logical argument, but it just like as long as you can follow the logic behind it, if you see what do I really liked that? Mmm. Because it, it shows the real person behind this scheming and what not. Right. So I like that. I like

Autumn (20m 10s):
That too. I'm trying to decide if it's similar to what I have are not, will have to decide to when we get there. But yeah. And I kind of did the same thing. Some of mine kind of built off of each other and I wasn't trying to treat cheat as well, but I thought there was kind of different, different veins or flavors. Yeah. That's a different one. So that's all fine. I don't have good solid words like persuasive for some of mine. Maybe I just wasn't trying hard enough, but my number line or phrases to my number eight is committed to what they are seeking.

Autumn (20m 43s):
I mean, they are so committed. They would give up their mother, their best friends or lovers achieve whatever their goal is. And they would do without any hesitation are coughing. There will be like, sacrifices must be made your It so forth. But I like that level of commitment. They don't sit there and go, Oh God, what's the right thing to do. They're just do it. Yeah score another one at another point from me. I think I have that. Great. Excellent. That's so encouraging. You have some overlap, you know, we were getting close to two.

Jesper (21m 14s):
I need to get to 11. I don't want to be off one book now after I've come miscalculate it last week, I want to have this one right here. We need to get to 11. All right. What I'm at now? You're at one to two to that's all I'm counting us as a long way. Two were only on seven. There is hope. Okay. So number seven is likeable qualities. Oh and this is short of a flipping at the whole thing on his head, I guess.

Jesper (21m 46s):
But I think that's a good one because the bad guy who isn't bad all the time, it's a much more complex character. And I really like it when the bad guy, all of a sudden does something that is quite likable. And then the next moment he is putting it back to being a bad guy. I really think that that works well because nobody's bat all the time for, just for the sake of being bad. So I liked that. Yes. And definitely overlap, but I have a word. It is slightly different, but Hey, we've got that one comm, so that's a good, I'm getting close to home.

Autumn (22m 20s):
So my number is seven is again a phrase, but a character who is not just evil because the Author needs an evil character to pit the heroes against. And then they just go in, they give 'em like every bad trait that could think of like, Oh, you should just eat baby. He is or kicks puppies or a starves dragons or, or whatever. But I don't like just a list of evil for the sheer sake of making someone hoard that you'll just hate. They should have an actual personality, an arc reasons for doing what they do and all of those things.

Autumn (22m 52s):
So I just, I still think even about the star Wars in the evil empire. And I mean, I think it took until maybe the clone Wars and stuff are making, you know, you do assume that dark Jetta in a dark forest is the reason is, is evil. But obviously I still feel like I missing something like why are there so evil people in the evil empire who seemed pretty decent? So I don't know which Cypress was to be rooting for it. It seemed to be heroes. Is that, aren't that decent? So what's the deal.

Jesper (23m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. I think we have some overlap there as well, but let's see. Alright. You can't make that up just because you want to win and I can just start saying, Oh, which one was the second one you had before? And then yeah. Yeah. That's my next, you keep asking what's account. No. OK. I need two more. Yeah, I know. I'm gonna, you know, I might not give you the Real so you watch out, He has some typing. That's just me correcting my notes. You have to do something else.

Jesper (23m 54s):
All right. Number six unethical. And so I think we actually have some overlap here is just, just the words that we've chosen to it for it basically, but you know, Great villains. So they tend to do terrible deeds, but what makes it work is when the Villain firmly believes, like sincerely believes that the end goal just justifies the means so that the antagonist we'll, you know, well basically put aside normal moral conduct are moral considerations.

Jesper (24m 32s):
And just to feel like this doesn't apply to him or her, that that really becomes a pretty frightening character when they do stuff like that.

Autumn (24m 40s):
And what do you know what's really interesting about your number six is it's pretty much my number, so I, I didn't, I could get a bonus point. So if we end up a 10, then it comes to 11 because there is a bonus. It kind of goes both ways. But I guess, yeah. It's because I, I phrase it, this just fully believes what he or she is doing is right. And again, I don't mean is that the necessarily that they don't think that there are evil, but that what they are doing is the right thing to do.

Autumn (25m 11s):
And it's really the hero. That's upsetting the balance of how things must be in their eyes. But yeah, just that total commitment of what I'm doing is the right thing to do. So I think it was almost exactly a phrase you used in there. So I think we're pretty much on par for that way. Nice. Okay. I'm getting close. So you might still where you might get this one. I hope so. Otherwise it'll be embarrassing and I can't sleep tonight will probably end up like, well, we can't rent a, it ended up at 18, but will probably end up with 12 or 15 just to spite us both.

Jesper (25m 48s):
Ah, okay. At least I'm closer this week, last week I was so bad. Okay. Number five is past wounds. So what I mean by that is an antagonist who have suffered something in the past. You know, it's probably some emotional wound and then how that informs the way he, as she behave in the precedent. I think that also makes for a compelling Villain. It also gives the reader a plausible explanation as to why this person behaves the way he or she does.

Jesper (26m 25s):
And, but I have to say, you're also have to be careful and come up with something good here, you know, something a bit original because yeah, yeah. The, the, the kid who lived in the street and was an orphan, whatever, you know, that's just, I know I've grown pretty tired of those. So I don't think that's a good past wounds. So you have to, to find something that hasn't been seen a million times before, but, but if you can do that, I think it gives a good origin story for the Villain, but it also gives a good explanation as to why they might think a bit differently than the rest of us.

Autumn (26m 59s):
Now, see, I'm wondering if, is it possible to have an anti overlap that might be erase a point

Jesper (27m 7s):
Only if we, our 12th than it will count because we get to pick on it then it absolutely. But its only something I can answer in hindsight. I don't know if it's been

Autumn (27m 17s):
So it, it should be a double and tie overlap because my number five is not just eval because of a past trauma. So I prefer a failed character arc. Even if its a character arc we, or we haven't seen in the current book, something that happened before the story started, but sort of like where the character made a, they had a choice of like the good internal motivation, but they chose to go with like power or fame or control instead of doing the good thing protecting the week or something like that.

Autumn (27m 49s):
So, so for me like someone abusing the character as a child is not a good, an excuse to be evil as an adult. I just, I want to see a series of bad choices and bad decisions that went wrong that led them to do increasingly evil or misguided things. I like that set of series and not just, Oh, this event happened in the past and therefore I'm bad. I'm kind of, to me, it's almost like a victim mentality and I want to see someone who's just taken the wrong turn even in despite themselves.

Autumn (28m 23s):
I guess I like a more nuanced growth. So almost the opposite of yours if I'm reading it correctly.

Jesper (28m 32s):
Yeah, no, I actually agree with what you're saying. I don't know if it's completely opposite because it's more like, OK, so yeah. I want to go with the orphan kid who lived in the street. Right. But, but okay. So something terrible happened and so it may have becomes like your coping mechanisms for how you survived, you know, so okay. Something bad happened and I try to do with the nice thing and I tried to talk to the people or whatever. Right. Nothing happened. It didn't help me. Then I beat them up and that actually helps, you know, something like this and that.

Jesper (29m 6s):
And then it builds on, on top of each other because then, then I started incorporating into my mindset. Okay. If I, if I need to, if I need to get my way, I need to beat people up and then you do that as a child. And then, you know, when you get older and you get adult, then it sort of accumulates into nastier and nastier things that you or the Villain is doing. Yeah.

Autumn (29m 27s):
Yes. So maybe it is an overlap because we're basically both saying that maybe there was something that started the tendency towards the evils site, you need some sort of trigger trigger. And then after that though, that's not the only excuse, they also continue on a path that makes that develops. That makes it more nuanced and keeps reinforcing it into this evil character. So I guess it is the same and again, on the exact same number, which is kind of funny.

Jesper (29m 58s):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll see where we end up and then we'll decide if it was to say more if it needs to add or subtract. OK. Depends on where we asked if we had a 10 or 12 or Indian, then we'll see. Alright, alright. Now before this is intelligent and I find this one important it's very much along those same lines. Just what you've said already, because I don't think there's anything scary about Villain who just keep doing stupid mistakes.

Jesper (30m 31s):
You know, the Chip's keeps falling into the hero's favor. That's really annoying a I don't like that. A Serita and its incredibly frustrating, but as a villain who is an extremely intelligent and our maneuvers, every body at every turn that is just, I love that is definitely. And yeah, so that's why it, it was my number and nine, but its to me a very, it's just an important feature to have in the villain. And that's why I could probably be the two, your number for Yeah. And what's funny is my number for was pretty much your number seven.

Autumn (31m 3s):
So mine is, has good Traits so that relates to be, that relates to what I said before about believing what they're doing is right. But they earnestly believed they have the answer too, an important question or their, the only one who was powerful in or can get this done. Right. You know, or like you said, maybe they love someone or their kind of children or misfits, but there's truly something deeply decent somewhere in them. I think that's so important because no one, no one is so 100% truly evil.

Autumn (31m 35s):
Maybe if your writing Christian literary, a religious lit and you have to have a devil that is truly, truly, truly all encompassing evil. But heck I mean, even if you watch supernatural, most of the devil characters on their are actually kind of likable. So it's just kinda the world right now. We've seen things gray. I think that is important, but it also balances it also balances outright because it, it makes for a more three dimensional character. If you're also have some good traits of a loosely and it, again, I think it's interesting to have a character or an evil character that's a more nuanced and that they feel more real because again, not everyone is that bad.

Jesper (32m 18s):
Okay. We enter Top I am not going to count how many we know are serious. We've had quite a few overlaps recently, so will have to see how this ends. Yeah. Yes. So let's see if we can agree in the Top. So my number three is formidable. That's an interesting one and yeah. And yeah, But the word formidable doesn't have to be understood as raw strength, you know, it can be, but it doesn't have to be, it can also relate to, well, some of the stuff we already talked about, so being like exceptionally cunning, but it could also be a person who has a great wealth in a lot of resources at their disposal.

Jesper (33m 0s):
Something that just makes them miserable. Well, that Villain but more of a position to the Hero as such so that it adds tension. And the more attention we get, the better to story we have formidable is a very good

Autumn (33m 16s):
And that's what kind of be another one where I might have to ask the question of, do we have an anti overlap, but it's not my number of three will come back to it. Tune obviously it, we only have three left. So my number three is again, this is where I'm starting to get into the negatives. My number three is me. They may not be an evil at all. My favorite villains are not necessarily evil. I mean, I truly love a good antagonist that has almost like a competitor to the protagonists.

Autumn (33m 47s):
So they could just be taking a different approach on what needs to be done. And it's more like a race to see who can get the upper hand and solve the issue first because to me and not every story has to be good versus evil two, make it full of tension. Not every hero has to be a hundred percent justifiably. Correct. And right. And good. So it sort of THE Hey, Hey, you know what, you're a hero. You're a Villain does not need to be a necessarily evil. They could just be a very nuanced character and a different position was a different take on things.

Autumn (34m 19s):
And it's just not working for your here or whatever. They believe maybe works for their set of people, but it doesn't work for the set of people that the Hero is from. And so that's where the clashes, the Rite in their own each of their own way, but buy being right there are hurting each other or somehow those are much more nuanced novels, but I do find them engaging. Oh a very interesting, I think that overlaps and so, okay. Interesting. All right.

Autumn (34m 49s):
So I'll put an overlap in, I'll leave my question to Mark with who are formidable to see if it is like one of my final to we'll have to answer that soon. Okay. Yes. Yes.

Jesper (34m 59s):
Okay. My number two is one that you have more or less already set up word by word that I think I just probably labeled the different the, I called it determination, but this is basically just the Villain who is unyielding. You know, somebody who is pursue a goal until the very end, no matter what it takes. Yeah. And that is pretty scary. That's what you already said it as well. Definitely. It's just someone who has committed. I think it is what I put it. Yes, definitely an overlap there.

Jesper (35m 32s):
So my number two, and this is my anti to your formidable is not all powerful. So I think I've seen it more that the opponent is the villains to formidable, but I like once who are not all powerful there, you know, either whether you call him magic power, wealth, there's they are also working in a system of constraints.

Autumn (35m 54s):
Plus they have to be able to be defeated. So they have some weakness, blind spot or arrogance, that's going to leave them exposed. So that's my number two is that they're not all powerful so that they're not a 100% formidable. So I dunno, is that an overlap? Where is it a, not an overlap. Yeah,

Jesper (36m 11s):
But this is formidable and necessarily mean that you're all powerful. Yeah.

Autumn (36m 14s):
No, not necessarily. That's why I'm thinking it's not quite the same thing. So we might not have an overlap there it's similar, but yes.

Jesper (36m 21s):
Different. Yeah, no, I think you're saying something slightly different, to be honest, I didn't mean mine to sound like you have to be unbeatable or something like that. That was not the point of it. But I think still you might be saying something slightly different,

Autumn (36m 39s):
So we are going to call those no overlaps, but they're pretty, they're almost along the same veins were, you know, there is this, they are incredibly challenging in, on one hand, but on the other, they have weaknesses as well. So there kind of like two sides at the same coin. Yeah,

Jesper (36m 56s):
Yeah, yeah. I agree difficult, but okay.

Autumn (37m 2s):
Is there a number one number one, right. This will be interesting. What is your number one answer?

Jesper (37m 9s):
Yeah. So this was the one that I found most important out of all of the Traits to give to a year. And I called this one Modi. And what he meant by that was, you know, an antagonist who clearly knows what he or she wants. That's just a lot more interesting. And again, it is overlapping some of the stuff you said earlier as, or one is never an evil for the sake of being evil. So a good antagonist who believes in what he or she is doing is very important.

Jesper (37m 45s):
And also the fact that at the antagonist will see him or herself as a hero while thinking that the protagonist is the real Villa. So it's one of those I have to be holder kind of things that you have already mentioned. Yeah. But I

Autumn (38m 0s):
Really, when they have, when the Villain truly believes what their doing is right in justifiable and it's the Hero, who's the evil one eye just, and you get sucked into their mindset almost. That is a fantastic character. That's the way she is. I kind of cheated because my number one is very similar to my Hero number one. And that it is again that you can take these lists in all of these ideas. But what I want is a, well-developed a fully developed character and with an antagonistic, because I actually really like to a point of view of character, because like I just said, I wanted to be sucked into their mind.

Autumn (38m 37s):
I want to see the world through their lens and see it makes me question what, you know, the Hero is seeing it, is it right? I like that kind of internal tension of getting to decide who is the right viewpoint. So I don't want them to have all the Traits we listed at which some of them kind of do contradict each other. So they shouldn't just be the list of these as well. Not quite 20 But 20 different traits that they should be something unique. And again, I mean, one of my favorite villains actually ends up joining the hero's in the second trilogy because it was such a cool character.

Autumn (39m 12s):
He's still not good, but he's still not evil. He's just very complex. And I guess if I could have chosen one word for a character for a Villain complex, maybe should have been my number one choice. Not that. Yeah. That's also a good one. All right. Well, do I, is it time to add a note? So what's the score that overlap my number one. Does that count as an overlap or not? I'll decide one day, if I have put a question Mark.

Autumn (39m 44s):
So one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, or 13, 13, 13 out of the 20th, which is the exact same was last week. We had 13 out of 20 last week. I had an expected that, no, I didn't either. I thought we'd be further apart. So, and as usual, we tended to agree too, with each other about the ones we chose, including complex.

Autumn (40m 14s):
The one that my 11th one I've thrown out there. It's two, you were consistent. I feel good. All right. This will be a lot better than the last time I guessed a little higher. I have wouldn't have guessed there team. And that is hilarious. We were totally consistent. Apparently is. So even though, even though we're creating these lists felled a lot harder than if it really did it last week, I sent you Bonnie Tyler's I need a Hero I couldn't no pop songs came in my head.

Autumn (40m 47s):
Maybe if anyone listening has a good Villain theme song, just go ahead and put in the notes. We obviously need some Villain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did some Villain inspired music. Yeah. What would be a good Villain song? You know, hit us up on in the Facebook group on Twitter or in the common sections here on the podcast or whatever, you know, I would like to know what what's a good Villain saw would be good, but I think that's what we were lacking, but I think of all, you know, take from this and this list have 20 different things were 13 of them would be really close to what, the way it's just, I just have to put that in their, just in case anybody who was very close to be my social Jesper won this week, I one last week.

Autumn (41m 39s):
I can remember that, but I think that nevertheless, you take what you can come from this 20 items on, use it as inspiration. I think all the antagonist is a critical part of any story. And he, or she is the one who forces the Hero to find smart and clever ways to solve his or her problems and can also at times service to the catalyst for the character arc.

Jesper (42m 5s):
So all of what we talked about here is actually really important. Absolutely. And Hey sometimes by seeing the antagonist lens, maybe the character of the hero will grow and see a bigger version of the world than they would have otherwise. Absolutely true. So take what you can from this and next Monday or Tuesday, and I will discuss whether or not marketing counts as working on your author business or not.

Autumn (42m 36s):

Narrator (42m 37s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to support The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on patreon.com/am Writing Fantasy for as little as a dollar a month. You'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going to stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

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