There are a lot of ways to create characters, but one technique we've found that has not only fantastic results but also helps with character arcs is using Enneagram personality types! Wait. What are Enneagrams?


Discover just what the nine Enneagram types are and how you can use them for your characters is what this episode is all about. Well, that and we might just have a little bit of fun too!


To learn more about Enneagram personality types check out


And, as we mention in the show, we cover this in much greater detail in our soon to be released book Plot Development: An Outlining Method for Fiction which you can pick up on preorder (and at a discount!) at 


Tune in for new episodes EVERY single Monday.


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Read the full transcript below. (Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).


Narrator (2s):
You're listening to the am. Writing fantasy podcast in today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent. There is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them now onto the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt, and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I am Jesper

Autumn (32s):
and I'm Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 82 of the M writing fantasy podcast. And when we wrote our upcoming guide on how to plot a novel, we also talked about character creation. And we mentioned before how important character creation really is having, we talked about that before autumn. Oh yes. We've. We've hinted that characters are kind of important to writing and especially to what readers love. So I don't think it's the first time listeners have no say that.

Jesper (1m 5s):
No, indeed. Yeah. And in the plodding book, we centered the process of creating characters around <inaudible> personality types. So we thought we would take you through the nine different personality types in today's episode here. And I don't know if I'm going to be successful, but I'm going to try to do my best to make it a bit entertaining. So it's not dry and boring. Let's see how it goes as well. I think we'll do our best. I mean, these are really fun personality types. And even just trying to think of characters from movies, I'm so bad at actress names and stuff, so I'm not going to do super well.

Jesper (1m 44s):
We can try to flip point out a few individuals, but it's the, you'll see so quickly why this is fascinating because not only do you get these nine wonderful types of people, but they have levels within them. So it's easy to work on your character arc and all these things. So it's a fantastic method. And of course that's why we use it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it works extremely well for, for how we laid it out in the plotting book. It all, it makes the couch arc so easy to deal with.

Jesper (2m 17s):
All of a sudden, you sort of have a bit of a template you can use. And of course you can modify it as much as you want, but, but it gives you a very good starting point. It doesn't, it's even, not even just heroes, but even your villain it's you can see little quirks and why they're going to act certain ways and you might not have even thought of. And I just think that is just fantastic and you can move them up and down the scale as well. So it gives you some great resources for creating some really dynamic characters.

Jesper (2m 46s):
Yeah. But before we get that fries is all well on your end, then autumn, how is, how are things? It is good. Of course we're recording this like way early, cause we're getting ahead for the summer, but where we're sitting currently in June, we're actually

Autumn (3m 0s):
In for I'm in Vermont. And it is actually been a really dry spring stream is dried up. We haven't had a significant rain, like over a half an inch in a month and a half. So I'm really hoping we get some rain soon, but I do think it's funny. I have a garden going and I'm my mom, my mom and my dad are both master gardeners. They're amazing gardeners. And I've always admired my mom's green thumb, but for ones, Oh my gosh, my garden looks so good.

Autumn (3m 32s):
I've had so many people come up to me like, wow, what are you doing? And I'm like watering it I've fertilized once every seven days because I'm basically growing stuff in gravel. When I did the soil test, it basically said, congratulations, you have gravel. No organic matter, no nitrogen, no phosphorus, no potassium. So despite this, I have like, my tomatoes are beautiful. My cucumbers are blooming. I have shard.

Autumn (4m 2s):
It's just, I've let us like we're eating salads every day. So it's amazing. So I feel very oddly proud of myself and I wish I had a better answer. People say, how are you doing? Because, Oh yes, that's my announcement. Or we need a little chime. My debut novel, born of water, just hit 300 reviews on Amazon.

Jesper (4m 26s):
I saw your post on Facebook. That's absolutely awesome

Autumn (4m 29s):
That also I am so pretty hungry lot. It is. And so at least when people ask me, how did you do that? I least have an answer. If you ask me how I'm managing to grow stuff. Oh, well I think I, maybe my mother's green thumb rubbed off on me. Otherwise I'm watering every day and feeding them once a week. Yeah.

Jesper (4m 53s):
But I, I guess if it's that dry and warm, is it also this kind of times where you have to watch out for forest fires and stuff like that, then

Autumn (5m 3s):
I think if it keeps up, it's going to go that way. There's been some fires North of us in Maine, and I'm really worried like Quebec and Ontario, I'm only a few hours from the Canadian border. I'm really worried about some bad fires on the East coast, much less the fires that are going to break out on the West coast this year. If we don't get some rain soon, the Arctic areas of Canada and stuff have already hit record highs. I think Siberia over the weekend hit 104 degrees. So beer. Yeah. This is not supposed to be 104 degrees.

Autumn (5m 34s):
So it's terrifying. So I, yeah, that could happen. How are things, hopefully you're not quite as warm as Siberia. How are things in Denmark?

Jesper (5m 44s):
At least forest fires is not something we have to worry about everybody over here that doesn't have it happen. Nobody it's good. This past weekend, I was out refereeing for the first time since Corona lockdown. Wow. That was awesome. That must have been awesome. Was it like a normal game? Was there something weird going on after the Corona virus? Well, it was yeah, more or less a normal game. I mean there, when you're, you're doing the Fairplay, you know, hello thingy, normally you do before, you know, everybody normally as the match starts, every, every player says a good match, have a good match to the referee and also to you to the opposing team.

Jesper (6m 27s):
And obviously we can't shake hands. So basically we just sort of walked past each other and say it rather than shaking hands. So that part is a bit different. And then on, on the pitch or the side of the pitch on both sides, there is a, these large drawn out boxes basically where the players have to stay within those boxes, which just to make sure that they don't get mingled with the crowd watching and spectators and stuff like that. So, so there's a few things that are slightly different, but in terms of the actual play, it's exactly the same as before.

Jesper (7m 2s):
So, so that was good. It was, it was a match just in the league that sits just below the semiprofessional level. So it was quite good because well, one of the teams have played at that level for a bit more than a year, whereas the other team just advanced, so this was their first match in this new league and for them and it, it really showed within 45 seconds, 45 seconds, it was a one to nail. So welcome to the big boys league.

Jesper (7m 35s):
It was like that. Right. So they, they got beat three to nothing. So it was, it was pretty that there was a big difference. That is a big difference, but yeah, especially not getting any points in, but you know, it wasn't something outrageous, you know, sometimes when the football in the U S you know, it was like 46 to one to seven or something it's spot. Yeah. Never happens in soccer. No, it's a little different. And then we went to visit some friends in the evening afterwards, and we were back home in bed, like 3:00 AM.

Jesper (8m 7s):
So thank God I don't drink alcohol because we had to get up at 8:00 AM. Or I had to get up at 8:00 AM, 8:00 AM the day after to take my youngest son to a soccer tournament. So yeah, I got like five, five hours of sleep. And if, if I was drinking alcohol, I would never have gotten up there, but thank God I don't do that. So I did take a nap yesterday afternoon. I didn't think that sounds like a well deserved yeah.

Jesper (8m 38s):
On the internet with the yam writing fantasy podcast. So I saw a very cool post in the amp writing fantasy Facebook group from Melanie. Oh yeah. Because yeah, because she discovered that Excel actually have a writing submission tracker template built in.

Autumn (8m 57s):
I did see that. And of course I don't, I use numbers over Excel, so I wasn't quite as excited, but that is pretty cool.

Jesper (9m 5s):
Yeah. I think it's cool in the sense that, I mean, of course it can help you keep track of stories and submissions and publications and stuff like that. But I just thought it was cool because I never knew that.

Autumn (9m 17s):
I just felt like that was very helpful to just

Jesper (9m 20s):
Point that out. I mean, it could be something you just discovered, you know, Oh, I found this, but the fact that she actually took it and posted it in the Facebook group to help everybody else, I thought that was very cool. So thank you for sharing that.

Autumn (9m 34s):
Yes. I did think, like I said, I saw that and I'm like, yeah, that is definitely such a cool feature that it's built right in. And now that people know all the group, people, members of the group and everyone we're telling today, that is fantastic because it's funny. I have been in the fantasy, the I'm writing fantasy Facebook group because it's been, Oh my gosh. So many people the last few days have been coming in. So I think we've all been pitching in to welcome folks. But I was looking at Mike's post recently, cause I said 42 comments just now.

Autumn (10m 7s):
And he was asking about anyone with main characters that are dysfunctional or disabled or autistic anxiety, OCD, something like that. And man, I know there's was one comment in there that listed like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, everything from game of Thrones, to some of the classics where there were characters that met those qualifications. I was like the hard man, this guy knows Sue has read a lot of books and could just organize it very quickly, but it is fantastic to see some of the questions out there. And like I said, 42 comments and they're still coming in on characters that have some kind of disability or dysfunction.

Jesper (10m 45s):
Yes. Probably more widespread than we think.

Autumn (10m 48s):
Yeah. It really was. When he, like I said, the one I would have to go back and find who came up with the one answer that was just listing off all of these different books. There were ones I had read that I hadn't thought of it. I just didn't come to mind when you, when it was asked. So I was like, wow, that is just fantastic.

Jesper (11m 8s):
Yeah. Yeah. So if you haven't joined us yet, just search for am writing fantasy in the group section of Facebook and you will

Autumn (11m 18s):
Find us. Yes. And that one poor person you beat me, but yes, there was some money. Somebody who actually messaged me on Facebook on how to join. So you can do that. And I'm sorry if it takes me a while to get back to you because sometimes Facebook hides my messages. I'm sorry. Yeah. So now we're okay today

Jesper (11m 39s):
Onto today's topic. Yeah. So, well, my, my wife is a certified, she certified in the end in a grand personality type. So I've had heard a lot about anagram types before we even started writing our guide on plodding. So it sort of made a lot of sense to find ways in which to use the anagram to develop fictional characters. Because I just, I liked the entire setup with these personality types because it, it just helps a lot. So, so that was sort of a starting point.

Autumn (12m 12s):
That's a good one. I mean, it's funny. Cause I had heard about the anagram cause I've taken some psychology classes and Adam has taken quite a few psychology classes. And so yeah, we'd both gone through them. We'd both taken the tests before. So it was kind of interesting to be like, Oh yeah, I gotta have the heart of this for characters, but this is so fantastic for characters.

Jesper (12m 34s):
It is absolutely. I think it is. And, but maybe before we sort of go any further, we should just probably be a bit helpful and clarify what this whole anagram deal is all about.

Autumn (12m 46s):
That's true. Yes. If you never heard of them before, you're like, this is a big word and I can't even smell it to figure out how to Google it. And that's just kind of mean of us, isn't it?

Jesper (12m 59s):
Yeah. So it's basically like a personality categorization system. So you have nine different personality types and each one of these personality types view the world different and has a different underlying motivation that drives their life and their feelings. So yeah, that's basically what it is. And I guess in a nutshell, if we boil it down

Autumn (13m 27s):
Yeah. I think that's a great explanation for an introduction to it. And just like, if someone is more familiar with the Myers Briggs personality type, that's a very common one in the United States. It's like that, but a lot more nuanced and structured. I think, I think it works very well. I get lost in Myers Briggs where this one is just kind of, you can read through it, grasp it and go like, Oh I got it. I like this one.

Jesper (13m 55s):
Yeah. And I guess I could, I could foresee somebody thinking at this point, but you said that there is nine personality types. Is that not like super limited to believe that there are only nine personality types in the world, but then I would say no, no, no, my friend, it is not like that because there are many different ways in which the personality types express themselves. So while the system has nine personality types, it's in fact just a bit more complicated than that.

Autumn (14m 31s):
That was another level below the nine as well.

Jesper (14m 35s):
Yeah. And they were there. There's a lot of, well, there's a lot of other things, but actually it's when it comes to fiction writing, we don't need all those other things. So there's things like triads and personality wings and all this kind of things that makes every of every one of those nine personality types different. So it's not like there is only nine, you have triumphs and wings and whatnot that makes you different. But the good news is that we don't need all that stuff for fiction writing.

Jesper (15m 7s):
So we are basically focusing on the nine types themselves and I'm thinking what we're going to do is we just going to go through all nine and explain what they are and I'll try to see if I can make it a bit entertaining. And then afterwards we can just talk a bit about how to use those, how to use them as character arcs as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I should probably also say that this is intended as some, a bit of fun here.

Jesper (15m 45s):
So I don't want it to come across as if I'm, you know, I'm passing judgment on any personality type.

Autumn (15m 54s):
No there's no. Yeah, definitely. There's no right or wrong answers here. There's nothing except for maybe being on the, one of the lower tiers of any of these is kind of a sad place to be, but there's nothing, nothing, none of them are, right. None of them are wrong numbers. None of them are better to be other than another one. I think it's, if you recognize as what do they say, if you recognize yourself, that's, that's fine. It's just a way of understanding yourself. It is not passing judgment. This is just, especially now we're talking about characters for your book.

Autumn (16m 25s):
So this is just about creating some really cool characters.

Jesper (16m 30s):
Yeah, indeed. So there is also, none of these are better than the others, so they all have their own strengths and weaknesses built in. So yeah, if you know something about the anagram and you think I'm stereotyping a bit too much or making too much fun of something, you know, just know that that's not the intention here. I'm just trying to make it a bit entertaining instead of reading out very dry personality type information. Because I think that that would be on the flip side, pretty boring.

Jesper (17m 0s):
So I do run the risk risk here of maybe offending somebody who feel like I'm a passing judgment, but just know that I'm not.

Autumn (17m 8s):
Yeah, that is fair enough.

Jesper (17m 11s):
So hopefully that, that disclaimer is out of the way here so we can, we can get started. And I think maybe as we go through this, perhaps we can think about which personality type you and I think we are ordering. And then afterwards we could just talk about that as well. I don't think we've ever talked about that before, to be honest.

Autumn (17m 31s):
I, and I actually, I prepared, I pulled out my old anagram. It's not that old a test to see which one I was. And it is funny because I almost had a triple tie. So I guess I am just complicated, but we can talk about that at the end.

Jesper (17m 47s):
Okay. So what I propose do with that, I'll go through all nine and then maybe once I'm done with each one, I'll just stop there just in case you have something to add or something that I missed or whatever, and then we'll do all nine and then afterward we can talk a bit about how to use these and, and, and which personality type we think we are ourselves. Sounds good.

Jesper (18m 17s):
Okay. So type number one is called the reformer. So this is the type of person who find it extremely important that things are done, right? So they want to basically make the world a better place and they do so by using principles. And when they're at their best, the reformer is actually a very amazing and passionate per person who excels at what they put their mind to.

Jesper (18m 48s):
But do you know the kind of person who can get extremely fixated on a very, very small, tiny detail?

Autumn (18m 58s):
She didn't. We just talk about that. I don't think I'm legally allowed to say yes, but I can say bride Zilla. I saw a bride who was getting ready for her wedding. Can, it starts worrying about, you know, the arrangements and the colors. And if you're off the shoulder dress versus on the shoulder, whether or not you wore a necklace and yeah, that's a total reformer type on the downside, the bedside. But I mean, that's a good side. This is someone who could go change the world. I mean, we could possibly look at some really big climate change activists.

Autumn (19m 31s):
They might be reformer types maybe. Yeah,

Jesper (19m 34s):
Yeah. Yeah. So when they're at the bedside, they have a tendency to focus on small details. That really doesn't matter that much. You know, they can be super obsessive about it and just cannot seem to relax. You know, they can be like, if there's a picture hanging there and is slightly crooked, they can get completely hung up on why it's crooked and it should be straightened. Or they could be like, let's say they come over to your house and they just park their car and they ring on the doorbell and you open the door and then they say something like, you know, I just couldn't help to notice as I entered here.

Jesper (20m 12s):
And I don't mean this the wrong way, but you guys quite dirty probably clean it, but don't use regular soap water. I found this environmental and specialized product that everyone should use. Honestly, I don't understand why you wouldn't use it. It's three times as expensive, but you will make the world a better place if you use it. So you can see that. So, and then the person would probably also go like here, I'll just text you an image of the product. You can go and buy it. You know,

Autumn (20m 43s):
I know a couple of these.

Jesper (20m 45s):
Yeah. This can be type number one is, did they have a tendency? As I said before, right? They, they view the world or they, they use principles to maneuver the world and try to make the world a better place that they mean well by it. But they do see the world very black or white that there is either right. Or there's wrong. There's very little in between for them.

Autumn (21m 8s):
Sounds fair. And yeah, I definitely can point out a few of those folks in the world, but yeah, I know. They mean, well at heart, they just might get a little tied up sometimes on the banalities of it.

Jesper (21m 21s):
Yeah. So that was a type number one. Anything more to add on that?

Autumn (21m 25s):
No, I think you covered it very well.

Jesper (21m 29s):
Okay. So let's move on to type number two, which is called the helper a and S it says in the title there, this person is someone who goes out of the, out of their way to help others. So when the helper is at their best, they are extremely generous and they care a lot for other people at their worst. Well, that's a different matter. So this purse person then at their worst, just doesn't know when to say no to others.

Jesper (22m 5s):
You know, they can be like neck deep in a million tasks. And then when their significant other comes home from work and ask if the helper will cook dinner, he or she will be like, Oh yeah, yeah, of course I will. Of course I'll get right on that. And then while the person is probably juggling laundry, cleaning and work, some sort of work assignment for the day job at the same time, you know, they will still want to get right on that cooking of dinner. And in the end, of course, because the helper takes on so many things, they will let somebody down in the end.

Jesper (22m 41s):
And that's where the unhealthy type number two will quickly resort to melodrama. So they'll be like, Oh my God, I have suffered and tortured myself for you. And you're not even grateful. And maybe you'll say, well, sorry, but you were the one who said that you were gonna turn that work assignment in today. And then they might be like, are you mad at me? I get the sense that you're really mad at me. No, I'm not mad. You can just complete your assignment tomorrow.

Jesper (23m 12s):
It's because I did something wrong. Isn't it? What is wrong with me?

Autumn (23m 15s):
Please tell me. So that's probably the unhealthy type too. Yes. That's a fun one. Oh my goodness. Okay. I'm going to have to try to be serious a little bit because I, on the good scale type two's helper, I admire them so much because they're warm and generous. I think the, the woman whose property I'm currently living in is definitely maybe a type two. She has the biggest heart and just never suspicious. Just always just the biggest brightest smile and so compassionate.

Autumn (23m 49s):
And I must be a little bit more jaded than that. I don't think I'm in helper, hint, hint, but I admire that. But the other side, the melodramatic side, I get that I don't get that at either that other one that's like, well, if you couldn't take it on, just say, no, don't sit there and complain that, you know what? I didn't want to let you down. Well, you didn't get it done anyway. So I'm still let down. Yeah. Yeah. Number two. Doesn't see it like that. It's just too difficult to say. No, it is.

Autumn (24m 19s):
And I do understand that idea of, you know, wanting to be the one who's there for people. And I think every child and every parent has that little bit of a helper somewhere in there where you don't want to let that other person down. So it's a really good type. Like I said, I admire them so much because there's, without them, the world would be not quite as happy and Brighton kind of place. Yeah. That's absolutely sure. Yup.

Autumn (24m 49s):
Okay. So I think we ready to move on to number three. Oh yes. And type number three is called the achiever. So at their best threes are genuine and confident personalities. So they want to feel valuable. Hence the name, the achiever. Yes. And if you've played a board game with a number three, you will know that they are not only competitive, but they are so to an annoyingly high degree, you know, they could be screaming.

Autumn (25m 23s):
Things like I'm like the best chess player that ever lived. You are the loser loser. I can't believe how great I am at this game. Number three, I don't think I want to play a board game. Was it achiever? And also three cannot stand to be wrong. And they will go out of their way to explain how, what they did was absolutely perfect. And it was flawless. And this also goes, as far as if they're unhealthy on the scale of three Eastern, it goes as fast to invent stuff about themselves and their own accomplishment as well.

Autumn (26m 3s):
So they could be saying things like, well, it's actually, so that when I was 15, I played in an official tournament against the best chess player in the world. And yes, I beat his ass, but he got it. Right. Cause it's no, no, no. Of course it was a secret batch that we only did. Yeah. Please don't Google it. Don't Google it. Put away your phone. And in the flight home, I also came up with the business idea for tick-tock. So I actually invented that.

Autumn (26m 35s):
Wow. That's so that'll be your unhealthy achiever. You kind of watch what they say. Cause you might not believe, but they're there, their belief of it can make you almost believe it. So that's a tough one.

Jesper (26m 50s):
Yeah. And it's it's it's yeah. They, they will just do anything to avoid admitting that they were wrong. So

Autumn (26m 58s):
I think I do know someone like that. Hmm. Yeah. A long time ago a coworker now I understand them better. Yeah.

Jesper (27m 9s):
Yeah. I know. I actually had a previous coworker like that as well. It was amazing. What kind of stories that come up with Jesus. He was like, you should almost believe he was an astronaut or something.

Autumn (27m 21s):
Huh? That would be, I do remember a joke once where I was on a cruise and we're like, we can be anything we want to be, they don't know who we are, but I don't think we went really forward with it, but that would have been fun. That would have been a total achiever thing to do to start just making up who you are when you're in a new place. This is somebody who does it every day. So I think a healthy achiever could be interesting as long as I tone it down. I don't know if I can tell, take yelling and having their greatness shoved in my face.

Autumn (27m 51s):

Jesper (27m 55s):
Okay. So number four, number four, the number four is called the individualist. So when the individualist is at their best, they are very creative, emotionally honest and focused on the beauty of the world. Yeah. However, those who are not at their best can really, really struggle with any dissatisfaction in their life. So they always want to have something that they can't have.

Jesper (28m 27s):
So if you have a boyfriend or girlfriend, husband, or wife, who's a type four. They can be looking for like the perfect soulmate that probably doesn't exist at all. So they constantly desire everything that others have as well. So like a better house, a better car at a job. Anything can just make these people envious. And because they feel like they are never complete or whole as a person, it just makes them constantly searched for that missing piece of themselves.

Jesper (29m 0s):
And maybe also just to pull it down on an even like smaller scale too, could be like, so let's say the unhealthy number for you. You're having, you're having a burger with this person. So you're sitting both down in your chair and then number four will say, I just wish my burger tasted as good as good as yours. And you might say, it's the same way we are having the exact same burger. I know, but I feel like yours are still better than mine. I just wished that mine was as good as yours.

Autumn (29m 33s):
And I would be like, okay, let's switch. And they'd really know Mike was better. Right?

Jesper (29m 37s):
Yeah. Then they would be like, no, no, I don't want you on this. Mine was,

Autumn (29m 43s):
Oh yeah. Oh, you make the high level, you know, the one that's well-functioning creative and it sounds so beautiful. Like I would like to be this creative and inspiring person that just wants to express myself, inspires others to do the same thing. But the downside, I guess if you're having a bad year, bad life is just, I would be sick of myself so fast. So I couldn't do it.

Autumn (30m 13s):
I am, I am obviously not this one either. Cause I am hopelessly usually content with my situation, at least finding at least the bed, the best side of where I'm at. So I just couldn't imagine, just imagine that someone else's drink is better or that person who's always clicking the remote because they think there's something better on TV. I have physically taken the remote away from I'm an ex boyfriend actually. So yeah, I think I dated one of these. It didn't last.

Autumn (30m 46s):
No. Oh, okay. All right. Type five. Are you ready for one more? Yeah, let's go for five.

Jesper (30m 54s):
Number five. The investigator. So at their best type fives are insightful, curious and very perceptive. So because of their ability to research and understand rather complex matters, they also have the ability to see the world in innovative new ways. The downside is that the investigator hates feeling useless. So they often struggle with anything that makes them feel incompetent.

Jesper (31m 27s):
Oh, so if there's a topic that comes up that they don't really know that much about, then the investigator will be the one who rushes home, buys 15 books on the topic, Amazon what's 35 YouTube videos and they just absorb it all because God forbid the best. Anything that the type five doesn't know

Autumn (31m 48s):
Is that like that meme where you see the ones, like when did you become a brain surgeon? And the author's like last night, that's, that's an investigator. Awesome, indeed.

Jesper (32m 0s):
But of course, because of all of this then for type number five, life can also feel really demanding and type five often don't believe themselves that they have the needed energy to deal with everything that is strong, met them because every time they face something that they don't know, they need to know it. So they struggle with energies. And as a result, they often socially detest themselves. And also, because of all the things that they know, they also know that stuff that they don't know.

Jesper (32m 33s):
So they research even more because of that,

Autumn (32m 37s):
They see that gap. Yeah. They see gap and they don't

Jesper (32m 40s):
Focus on all the stuff that they do know. Instead they basically start doubting themselves a lot because the more they read, the more they become aware that there's other stuff that they don't know. So they will start doubting themselves even more so it's it's it can become a very vicious,

Autumn (32m 58s):
Oh, that's horrible. That does sound like a really tough one. So on the upside they're innovative and alert and perceptive and they can create some problem solved. I could imagine this is just a great problem solver. They see the world differently. Or as I definitely, we joke my husband and I, he doesn't, he doesn't see outside the box. He doesn't even see the box. So I definitely think he goes to the investigator side. There's no box for him. And he's just in another universe from the box. And he sees solutions that it's just like, Oh, actually there was a movie, it was a Cinderella movie.

Autumn (33m 33s):
And it had DaVinci in it for some reason, which is why I remember it because I loved Leonardo DaVinci. I was born on the same day. So he's one of my heroes and he comes up and he gets Cinderella out of a locked door by taking off the hinges. And they're like, Oh my gosh, you're amazing. You're a miracle. You figured out how to open this lock door. And he's like, yes, I will go down in history for opening a door. But again, it is because everyone else was looking at the lock. He looks at the other side and he takes off the hinges.

Autumn (34m 3s):
That's an investigator.

Jesper (34m 5s):
Indeed. Indeed. Yes. Okay. So we're up to number six. Yes. Are you ready for this one? I'm ready for this one. Okay. So number six is the loyalist. So this person is funny, compassionate, very reliable. So at their best they are fateful and self-sacrificing, it's a very productive person who looks towards the common. Good. Yeah. So that's good. Now get ready for the bad side.

Autumn (34m 33s):
I know. I'm going to say, just stop there. I want this person as my sidekick. I want, if I'm the hero, I want this person as my sidekick. Just slate that in. Make sure they're a high functioning loyalist. Cause what's

Jesper (34m 44s):
Just about to say then you don't want the,

Autumn (34m 47s):
Yeah. Let's the downside now. All right. What is it?

Jesper (34m 51s):
Yeah, because type six has a very deep need to feel secure. Oh. And that can evolve into crazy anxiety for them. I don't, you know, there'll be like, what is that? That dark cloud overhead there will suddenly throw a lightning bolt at me. The entire world is probably no, not probably most definitely against me so nobody can be trusted and a while they can act pretty decisively in a crisis situation.

Jesper (35m 21s):
Right. Afterward they will fall completely apart. Oh no. Yeah. And they will always look for the worst case scenario. So if you're going to go camping with this person, the type number six will probably create like a whole list of all the things that can go wrong and all the things you need to do to,

Autumn (35m 41s):
I was just going to say, I don't want to go camping with this person said, then you said camp. Oh my goodness. No. I'm thinking though, Sam from the Lord of the rings sounds totally like a loyalist even to the point. I mean being a Hobbit, he wants to sing know he wants to comfort as well. I mean, he, he goes up and down the scale. And so looking at that character, you can kind of see how the scale system works, where if you are tired, having a really bad day, you're going to fall down the scale.

Autumn (36m 12s):
And you're just going to sit there and talk about the rocks. You're going to fall down and you're going to be eaten by the giant spiders and Gandalf hates you today. And if you're having a good day, you're the one who's gonna rescue Frodo, which is awesome. So that's a really kind of a good example.

Jesper (36m 28s):
Yeah. I think Sam is actually excellent the same because there's also several times throughout a lot of the rings where he will start being concerned about mr. Frodo. I'm not sure this is a good idea. He does that several times. He becomes a very insecure. Yeah.

Autumn (36m 44s):
Yeah. So yeah, I still will take one a loyalist at a high functioning level preferably, but I, I will be there to support them on the bad days. That'd be a good sidekick.

Jesper (36m 54s):
Okay. All right. So type number seven is the Intuitionist all right. So as implied by the name, this person loves to share what he or she is excited about. So it's a very people oriented person who, who usually has a ton of friends. Oh, okay. So they are very fun to be around when they are at their best.

Autumn (37m 20s):
Of course. Yeah. Everyone likes a high functioning person.

Jesper (37m 26s):
Yeah. I mean, there's good and bad in all of these exactly. When they are not at their best, they are basically constantly looking to feel an emptiness that they feel inside. They feel inside of themselves.

Autumn (37m 41s):
That sounds so sad.

Jesper (37m 43s):
Yeah. Perhaps someday they'll feel contempt if they can just experience one more thing, you know, who says that you can't head off to climb Mount Everest next week. Yeah. We should certainly do that. And then perhaps on the way home we could run the New York marathon. Just that that's also a good idea. That would actually be great. And then I just need a pair of new running shoes and I'm going to visit the new shopping mall right now and find a new pair. Bye, bye. See you.

Autumn (38m 12s):
Oh no. So that I was gonna say, I think there's definitely, I'm on the lots of friends and so the enthusiasm and all of those things, that's probably my mom and my mom and I are about opposite types. So she's such an extrovert. So this is an extroverted go out, conquer the world, going to go do all this stuff. It sounds great. But boy, that's a tough one for me. If you're a quiet introvert, you're probably don't want to hang out with an enthusiast.

Autumn (38m 44s):
You're going to get stressed out, stressed out wrangle.

Jesper (38m 49s):
Basically the enthusiast is always looking for something else to do that they just can't settle down and relax for just a bit. You know, they always have to do something and they get bored very fast. And also, as you can imagine, sevens have a problem finishing anything. Cause they basically just jump from one thing to the next

Autumn (39m 10s):
All the time. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So I think they would be an interesting character to throw into a book, but I think on a personal level, I would only be able to take small doses.

Jesper (39m 25s):
Yeah. Yeah. I follow you. If you're with them for one evening or something, it's probably going to be very entertaining, but living with them

Autumn (39m 33s):
Most exciting evenings of the year for me, because after that I'll be in a cave.

Jesper (39m 40s):
Yeah. Okay. So type number eight. We're almost to the end now. So type number eight is to challenge you. So H R when they are at their best, they are amazing friends and partners. So they can both assume a leader role, but they can also follow. So they are very, very resourceful people when they are not at their best. It's an entirely different methadone.

Jesper (40m 11s):
Yeah. So eights just hate to be controlled by others. And as a result, they tend to dominate their environment. Okay. So this is the only way that the eight believe that no one will be able to harm them is basically by dominating. Oh, that's interesting. If things go wrong it's of course never number eight fault. So the eight we'll see him or herself as pure and very, very honest person.

Jesper (40m 42s):
So because of that, it is inconceivable that such a person could have any kind of negative effect on others. Right. Right. So if they have to admit that they were wrong, I did something wrong. It takes away from their feeling of control and they don't like that. So they don't do it. So let's say that number eight, forgot to do the dishes. And you might ask, did you do the issues? And number eight, we'll say what? No, but we agreed that you would do that while I did the grocery shopping.

Jesper (41m 15s):
I don't think I was part of that planning. Oh, well we sat right here at this table and agreed. It was that when I was reading emails on my tablet. Yeah, exactly. So you do remember it. You shouldn't make agreements with me when I'm not paying attention. You need to talk to me at the right times.

Autumn (41m 35s):
Oh, that's definitely controlling.

Jesper (41m 38s):
Yeah. And it's not number eight's fault. Of course. Yes, absolutely. He or she has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he didn't, he or she didn't do the dishes that's cost. Of course the other person's fault that they made the arrangement or agreement in Iraq, Pronto.

Autumn (41m 53s):
Well, that could be, I could see definitely the bad side. This is someone who is controlling and could definitely be abusive to those around them as they age, they force other. Cause it's always someone else's problem. Always someone else's mistake that impinged on them. So that's a problem. But I love the idea of a strong, a, especially like as a leader, like this is like a perfect mentor, figure someone who to be a leader, but can also say it is your time to fly. I'm going to let you go first and I will follow you and support you in this.

Autumn (42m 26s):
I mean, that's just beautiful. This is who you want as a mentor. This is that person you want on the, on the team with you. But as long as around a good day, not a bad day, otherwise they might be telling you it's your fault, but they just led you into the Dragon's layer, which would be actually a really good con comedic moment. But if you want to write that one out, but Oh my God. So one more, one more line number nine,

Jesper (42m 57s):
The peacemaker. So the healthy number nine is very, very flexible and probably one of the best people in the world to sit down with for heartfelt conversation. Oh, that sounds nice. Yeah. So the peacemaker wants to feel like their present matters and that's why they are natural born mediators and they always search for peace and stability.

Autumn (43m 27s):
That sounds nice. I like that. Yeah. So good. So far. So COVID how can we screw this up?

Jesper (43m 37s):
Well, all of this then feeds into their basic fear, which is conflict. So they worry a lot about losing relationships and they will go out of their way to avoid any kind of conflict. That doesn't sound good. No. And this also goes as far as to basically neglecting their own feelings and priorities in order to avoid that conflict that they fear so much. So they can, because of all of this, they can be quite prone to anxiety and they will not finish anything.

Jesper (44m 11s):
They start. So if you've ever sort of experienced the person who talks about doing the laundry forever, but never do it well now, you know why? So it's sometimes it's the simple act of making a decision that can feel completely overwhelming when the number nine is at their worst. So it's hell when you simultaneously are trying to please yourself and others at the same time. So what if you are at the library and you want to take a book out, but then you start wondering, but what if somebody else also wants to read this book, then I can't take it.

Jesper (44m 52s):
No, no, I, but I really want to read this. I should take a note now, but I can't. So it's just,

Autumn (44m 57s):
You shouldn't making is horrible and tormenting to, this is like, what do you want for dinner? But what do you want? What we'll have whatever you want, but I want to know what you want. It just, she would never kid anywhere. That's horrible. Oh, I might know one or two of these in my life. I have to admit, I think they're on the mild side.

Jesper (45m 19s):
If, if we think enough about it, we probably most, we probably know most of these in somebody that we know. Yeah,

Autumn (45m 25s):
Absolutely. At least parts of them,

Jesper (45m 28s):
Of course. Throughout my nine examples. Yeah. I'm also exaggerating and put it sort of on edge right on purpose. But, but I think it, it, it shows quite well how they are all very different.

Autumn (45m 41s):
And I think that we, when it comes down to, for choosing one as a character, in a novel, you do have to kind of push it and emphasize it. That'd be, that's sort of all of our writing fantasy and fiction writing was we are, it's all ramped up a little bit. It's not real life you're were kind of pushing everyone to their limits constantly. So that's fair. I think our examples are very fair.

Jesper (46m 4s):
Right. So did any of these, some sort of stick out to you? Do you know which one you want?

Autumn (46m 9s):
Well, I know. And it's funny. Cause I do see, like I mentioned, when I took the test, I ranked almost all of mine are within points of each other. It's like one point difference for the top four. And I don't know if that's common, but they basically had to said, you know, you were probably one of these three. So I thought that was funny and I do on certain days and depending on it, cause I, I am left brain, right brain. So I am creative, but I'm also scientific at the same time. So I'm organized as well as chaos.

Autumn (46m 41s):
So I do, I do, depending on if I'm currently, like if I'm working on formatting, I'm definitely more one way. And if I'm doing something far more creative, like drawing, I'm more the other way. But my top one, which surprises me looking at it now, because I think I must have taken this when I was formatting something. Was it an achiever was my top one and it was achiever investigator were tied and then I was also a peacemaker. So I think those are valid, but I think I stream between all three of them possibly daily, but definitely weekly.

Autumn (47m 17s):
But yes, there are definitely times I see a little bit of myself in a lot of them.

Jesper (47m 23s):
Well, yeah, that's also, I mean, again, we don't need to get into for fiction writing about wings and whatnot, but quite normal that if you take the test that depending on the situation you're in right now, you might be sort of editing more to one of your wings rather than the one you actually are. So, so it depends, it depends on the situation you were in when you're taking the tests as well.

Autumn (47m 46s):
Absolutely. Yeah. Like I said, it, your mindset, there's so many things I've been going on your life and could be pushing you one way or another. And you're relying on one of those other traits that you have instead of, you've probably had to take it a few times and see which one kind of keeps popping up towards the top.

Jesper (48m 3s):
Yeah. I mean, in the end, the gram, the idea is that you are one of these, you're not several of them, but, but you can sort of borrow from one or the other times, depending on which life situation you were in. And some of them borrow more from others than, than then again than others do. So. Yeah.

Autumn (48m 21s):
Yeah. And I think, yeah,

Jesper (48m 24s):
A large portion of it that you can take the test to try to figure out which one you are. But a lot of it is also just about reading about the personality types of sort of feel within yourself. Which one do you feel most aligned with that will usually give you the best answer?

Autumn (48m 41s):
I think so too. And you'll get, and you'll see aspects of, like you said, with the wings and other things I would say, cause I like the peacemaker one, but I am far more decisive. So I know that it's definitely lower on the list. So the investigator, or maybe the achiever are probably pretty legit for me. How about you? What do you think you are? I'm number eight. You are yeah. A challenger that's isn't that what it was? Yes, that's correct.

Autumn (49m 10s):
Oh, I see. I guess that that's interesting. Now I must think about this for awhile. So that's very cool.

Jesper (49m 24s):
Yeah. So I think this whole Instagram stuff is very, very interesting. So we'll put a link in the show notes to the Instagram as a whole. So you can go to the website and read more about it. If you're interesting, even outside of fiction writing, I, I do find it very, very interesting.

Autumn (49m 43s):
It's so fascinating to wonder why people tick. I think all good writers, all people who get into character development end up being psychologists to some little degree, we kind of have this stuff and yes. And plus in the show notes too, we will put in a link to the plotting book, which we currently have on preorder where we go over, how to use these anagrams to create characters like we've been talking about today,

Jesper (50m 8s):
Correct? Yeah. And in the plotting bogus, well, we have actively listed out all the steps between the very healthy one and a very unhealthy one. And basically that's how you can use the, to develop the character arc. So you can sort of slide the couch in and say, okay, they are at this level. And then by the end of this book or the final book in the trilogy or whatever it may be, I want them at that level. And then of course you can slide them up or down depending on what you want them and what, where the story takes them. But by using those steps that we have listed in plotting book, it becomes very, very easy for you to understand how to slide them up and down, where will they end at the end of their arc from a personality point of view.

Jesper (50m 50s):
And yeah, you'll have to read it in the plotting book itself, but I can promise you some of the worst cases for some of these really, really, really bad, bad, you can definitely put some characters into some very dark places, which is great for an insane villain. Yeah. But also you can also stop the character out on a very low level and then move them upward. So that by the end of the series, they've become a much, much better version of themselves. So that's also cool. Very cool. Yeah.

Jesper (51m 20s):
So we'll add a link to that as well as autumn set in the show notes. It is on preorder when you're listening to this, but once we reached the 3rd of August and that's 2020, if you're listening to this later, but the 3rd of August, 2020, the price of that book will go up. In fact, it will double. So if you're interested, I recommend that you go and purchase the preorder right now, as long as you can get it for half price. So yeah, there is a link in the show notes there sounds good.

Jesper (51m 53s):
Okay. So we hope you enjoy today's episode next Monday. And if all goes well there, I will have a very interesting interview lined up for you.

Narrator (52m 5s):
If you like, what you just heard. There's a few things you can do to support the am writing fantasy podcast. Please tell a fellow author about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join autumn and Yesper on writing fantasy for as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep the M writing fantasy podcast going, stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

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